1.Paul Zeizel — Direct (Part 2)
295 linesBAILIFF: This court is now in session. You may be seated.
COURT CLERK: Good morning, Your Honor. May I proceed?
THE COURT: Yes, please.
COURT CLERK: Your Honor, before the court today we have the matter of Commonwealth versus Lindsay Clancy. Ms. Clancy is present. She is represented by Attorney Kevin Reddington. The Commonwealth is represented by Assistant District Attorney Jennifer Sprague and Assistant District Attorney Shanan Buckingham.
THE COURT: Good morning, everyone. Good morning, counsel.
MR. REDDINGTON: Good morning.
MS. SPRAGUE: Good morning.
THE COURT: Good morning, Ms. Clancy.
MS. CLANCY: Good morning, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Before we get going, this... There's a... We may have a little bit of a delay actually starting at this point, through no fault really of anyone, so I just kinda wanted to come out so maybe we go sidebar, talk about what the day, the schedule is and just so everybody's aware that we're trying to get this moving. So, counsel?
THE COURT: All right. So, at this point, what we're gonna do is we're gonna be in recess, and we'll come back as soon as we can in regards to this. We'll resume the trial at that time. Okay? Thank you.
BAILIFF: Court, all rise.
BAILIFF: Court is back in session. You may be seated.
COURT CLERK: Your Honor, if you please, the record may reflect that we've come back from the Commonwealth versus Lindsay Clancy. All parties are present, excluding the jury.
THE COURT: All right. Counsel, we ready for the jury?
MR. REDDINGTON: Yes.
THE COURT: All right.
BAILIFF: Court, all rise, please.
BAILIFF: Hear ye, hear ye, hear ye. All persons having anything to do before the Honorable William Sullivan, Justice of the Superior Court now sitting in Plymouth within the floor of the Commonwealth, draw near, give your attendance, and you shall be heard. By the state of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, this court is now in session. Please be seated.
COURT CLERK: Good morning, Your Honor. May I proceed?
THE COURT: Yes, please.
COURT CLERK: Your Honor, before the court today we have the continuation of the jury trial in the matter of Commonwealth versus Lindsay Clancy. Ms. Clancy is present. She is represented by Attorney Kevin Reddington and the Commonwealth is represented by Assistant District Attorney Jennifer Sprague and Assistant District Attorney Shanan Buckingham.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you, Madam Clerk.
THE COURT: Good morning, members of the jury.
JURORS: Good morning.
THE COURT: Nice to see all of you. I appreciate you being here. So what I'm gonna do is we're gonna go over the questions that you know are coming, and then what we'll do is we'll get right back into the, to the case. So the first question: Is any member of the jury read, seen, heard or overheard anything from any source about any aspect of this case that would affect your ability to be fair and impartial? Next question: Is there any other serious matter or concern bearing on your service as a juror in this case that anybody needs to bring to my attention? Again, thank you so much for following those instructions. And so what we're gonna do now is, we broke yesterday. There was a witness on the stand who was testifying on behalf of the defense. We'll return to that witness at this point. And so if the witness could retake the stand at this time.
COURT CLERK: Good morning. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony and the evidence you shall give to the court and the jury in the matter now pending between the Commonwealth and the defendant at the bar shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
PAUL ZEIZEL: I do.
COURT CLERK: You may have a seat.
PAUL ZEIZEL: Thank you.
THE COURT: Good morning, doctor.
PAUL ZEIZEL: Good morning, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Are you ready?
MR. REDDINGTON: Thank you, Judge. Sir, I'm gonna try to just redirect towards the interview that you had of Lindsay regarding her journey. On November 29th of 2022, do you recall which healthcare provider she visited?
PAUL ZEIZEL: I believe that Ms. Clancy saw Ms. Jollotta for treatment.
MR. REDDINGTON: That'd be Nurse Practitioner Jollotta?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: Do you know what she complained on November 29th that her symptoms were?
PAUL ZEIZEL: She was having issues with unstable mood, depression, and psychotic symptoms of disassociation.
MR. REDDINGTON: Did she also on that date, November 29th of '22, complain that she had what is referred to as a flattened affect?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes, and that was also paired with derealization.
MR. REDDINGTON: And what does that mean?
PAUL ZEIZEL: That an individual experiencing derealization doesn't feel things are real when they look around. They don't think that what they're seeing is in the reality that they're in.
MR. REDDINGTON: Now, at this time, towards the end of November into early December of '22, she was living in Duxbury, is that correct?
PAUL ZEIZEL: That's correct.
MR. REDDINGTON: And she's living with her husband and her three children, three young children, correct?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: And was the husband working?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: Where was he working?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Pardon me, Attorney Reddington?
MR. REDDINGTON: Where was he working?
PAUL ZEIZEL: He was working for Microsoft, but in a home office that was in the basement of the house.
MR. REDDINGTON: And she's obviously taking care of Callan, the infant, and Dawson, and, you know, Cora.
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: Right? And the kids were in school a couple of days a week, in the preschool, the Little Sprouts or something like that, right?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: So did she improve at that point, sir? Or did she end up going to South Shore Perinatal Clinic on December 2nd?
PAUL ZEIZEL: She did not improve. She was getting worse. She did go to the South Shore Perinatal Naval Clinic.
MR. REDDINGTON: And would that be on December 2nd?
PAUL ZEIZEL: December 2nd, yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: And what was the reason? What were her complaints that brought her to South Shore Perinatal Clinic on December 2nd?
PAUL ZEIZEL: She felt that her brain was damaged. She felt that she should kill herself, and she's never going to get any better.
MR. REDDINGTON: Did she also express fear that people could hear her thoughts, and that anything adverse would happen in her life regarding being a mother and having children?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes. That's thought... called thought broadcasting.
MR. REDDINGTON: And what was her concern about the children?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Her concern was that when people could hear her thoughts, her children would be removed from her care.
MR. REDDINGTON: Now, and keep your voice up, please.
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: Did she indicate, and I quote, that, "She had bad and intrusive thoughts, and she didn't even feel that they were like mine, telling me I should kill myself. My brain is damaged. You're never gonna get better"?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: And did that type of intrusive thought or persecutory thought continue for a period of time?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: Did it get so bad that she ended up doing something?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes, that's correct.
MR. REDDINGTON: What did she do?
PAUL ZEIZEL: She called the suicide hotline.
MR. REDDINGTON: And do you know when that was, sir?
PAUL ZEIZEL: That was December 4th, 2022.
MR. REDDINGTON: Did she receive any help from the suicide hotline?
PAUL ZEIZEL: She did not.
MR. REDDINGTON: Why is that?
PAUL ZEIZEL: They told her she did not meet the standard of care 'cause she did not have a plan.
MR. REDDINGTON: Did she call the suicide hotline again, if you're aware?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes, she did.
MR. REDDINGTON: Do you know when that was? Was that in December?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes. I believe that was perhaps the following week, around the 15th, but I'm not positive about that.
MR. REDDINGTON: Did she receive help on the second call that she called the suicide hotline?
PAUL ZEIZEL: No, she did not.
MR. REDDINGTON: Can you tell us, at this point now we're talking about in December, let's say towards December 15th or thereabouts, what were her symptoms at that time regarding any complaints or observations that she had about paranoia or things of that nature?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes. She was having paranoid symptoms of psychosis, and she was getting more depressed.
MR. REDDINGTON: Did she make any comments about DCF or the police at that point?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: Now, she, to your knowledge, did she ever have any involvement in her entire life with the police?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Never.
MR. REDDINGTON: And did she express that she was in fear or concerned about DCF and/or the police in the middle of December '22?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Very much so.
MR. REDDINGTON: What did she say?
PAUL ZEIZEL: She was worried that her children would be removed from her, and that she would never see them again.
MR. REDDINGTON: Now, at this point, what medication was she on?
MR. REDDINGTON: First paragraph, page nine.
PAUL ZEIZEL: She started to take, at that point, Seroquel and Remeron and Klonopin.
MR. REDDINGTON: Did she make any complaints at that point about the effect, if any—
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yeah.
MR. REDDINGTON: …of the medications?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: What did she say?
PAUL ZEIZEL: She said she felt like a zombie.
MR. REDDINGTON: Did she present with any particular medical observation that you refer to?
PAUL ZEIZEL: I'm not sure I understand your question.
MR. REDDINGTON: Well, paragraph one on page nine, you indicate she presented with anhedonia.
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yeah.
MR. REDDINGTON: What does that mean?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Anhedonia is a word that means without pleasure. When someone has anhedonia, they cannot enjoy life. They don't laugh. They have no pleasure.
MR. REDDINGTON: Continuing on into December, what was her status of her condition of depression and symptoms of paranoia and intrusive thoughts, et cetera, that we've talked about?
PAUL ZEIZEL: It continued unabated.
MR. REDDINGTON: On December 15th of '22, right before the holidays, did she go somewhere?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes, she did.
MR. REDDINGTON: Where'd she go?
PAUL ZEIZEL: She went to the clinic in Rhode Island, Parents and Women's Clinic, partial day hospitalization program.
MR. REDDINGTON: And she didn't get any help there either, right?
PAUL ZEIZEL: That's correct.
MR. REDDINGTON: Did she go at some point around that same timeframe to Mass General Hospital?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes, she did.
MR. REDDINGTON: Now, you knew that she worked at Mass General Hospital for nine years, right?
PAUL ZEIZEL: That's correct, in labor and delivery.
MR. REDDINGTON: She wasn't there visiting friends, right?
PAUL ZEIZEL: That's correct.
MR. REDDINGTON: Why was she there?
PAUL ZEIZEL: She was there in the emergency room to seek help.
MR. REDDINGTON: Did she get help on that day?
PAUL ZEIZEL: She did not.
MR. REDDINGTON: So after going to the MGH ER, at some point in December 30th, what did she do?
PAUL ZEIZEL: She went back to the emergency room in, at Mass General.
MR. REDDINGTON: Now, for example, on December 15th, did Pat Clancy, her husband, get involved with her medical treatment?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: And do the medical records indicate that he did something with her?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes, he brought her to the partial hospitalization program in Rhode Island.
MR. REDDINGTON: Did he also bring her to the Mass General Hospital ER?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes, he did.
MR. REDDINGTON: Did he also bring her to see the doctor or the nurse practitioner, Jollotta, and complain about the medication?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: So December 30th, or 31st, of 2022, she was admitted voluntarily to McLean, right?
PAUL ZEIZEL: That's correct, yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: How long was she there for?
PAUL ZEIZEL: She was discharged to... She was there till the fifth. She was discharged January fifth, 2023.
MR. REDDINGTON: Was that a voluntary discharge? They cleared her as well to be discharged?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: That was not what is referred to as AMA, or against medical advice, right?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: Yes what?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes, that's not AMA. It's not against medical advice. She was following hospital guidelines. She was discharged accordingly.
MR. REDDINGTON: And she wanted to go to her daughter's some function?
PAUL ZEIZEL: She wanted to go to her daughter Cora's birthday party, which was held on the seventh of January.
MR. REDDINGTON: Now, at this point, what was her status? She had been... Was she had... Was she weaned off of medication or on her way to being weaned off of medication when she got out of McLean?
PAUL ZEIZEL: I believe so. Yes, she was being tapered down on her medication.
MR. REDDINGTON: And what was the medication that she was tapered down on?
PAUL ZEIZEL: I believe it was Seroquel and Klonopin.
MR. REDDINGTON: Did her intrusive thoughts and the paranoia, did that abate? Did that stop?
PAUL ZEIZEL: It did not.
MR. REDDINGTON: Now when she was home in the month of January, after Cora's birthday, which I think was on January seventh, did she continue to have these intensive, intrusive thoughts?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: Can you tell us, when we say intrusive thoughts, is she referring to intrusive thoughts like you might think of something coming up next week that's bothersome? Or is this a indication, in your opinion, to a reasonable degree of medical certainty as to what she was experiencing at that point in January of 2023?
PAUL ZEIZEL: She wasn't just having everyday thoughts that we all have, reminding ourselves to do something, which we make note of, and then we move on. Intrusive thoughts are unrelenting. They don't stop. They're what we call egodystonic. You don't want them. They keep interfering with your ability to get through the day.
MR. REDDINGTON: Did she have, at this point, intrusive thoughts continuing regarding voices in her head that she heard constantly?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: What were these voices saying to her?
PAUL ZEIZEL: They were getting worse, and they were telling her to kill herself.
MR. REDDINGTON: And as January continued, she was, to your knowledge, using her computer to look up drugs and interactions and side effects and things of that nature?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: If a person is in a psychosis, or as I think you said, premorbidly psychosis, are they able to do things like look up things on a computer?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: And are you aware that she actually at one point looked up, can you cure, I think a sociopath or a psychopath or something like that?
PAUL ZEIZEL: It was sociopath, yes. She looked up—
MR. REDDINGTON: Was that indicative of her feeling that she is a homicidal maniac and has to have some help? Or is that in the same timeframe that she was googling all of the effects of medications on a human being?
MS. BUCKINGHAM: Objection.
THE COURT: Is it an objection?
MS. BUCKINGHAM: Yes.
THE COURT: Yeah, sustained.
MR. REDDINGTON: So during the period that she was googling... Well, let me ask you, what was she googling?
PAUL ZEIZEL: She was googling words about sociopaths, sociopathy. Can you treat a sociopath? What are hallucinations?
MR. REDDINGTON: What else?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Bear with me one moment, if you don't mind.
MR. REDDINGTON: When you had a chance, did you look at the Google searches that she had done—
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: …that's in evidence, and the jurors are able to look at it?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: Did she continue to Google the effects of medication, psychosis, numbness, heaviness, unable to… things like that?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes. All things that related to the way she was feeling.
MR. REDDINGTON: And if a person is in a psychotic state, are they able to continue to Google and use a computer to look things up?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: They're able to use a phone?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: They're able—
PAUL ZEIZEL: People who are in that state can do things they've done before. New tasks may be difficult, like changing a tire, but if you looked up things on the internet, you can look them up again. If you drove a car, you can drive a car.
MR. REDDINGTON: Now, the morning of January 24th, I believe she went somewhere. Is that right?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: Where'd she go?
PAUL ZEIZEL: She had taken her daughter to a pediatrician, a standing pediatrician appointment.
MR. REDDINGTON: And is it your understanding to a reasonable degree of medical certainty that a person who's in a psychotic state is able to drive a car for a short distance, go to an appointment, and interact and talk to people?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes, they can do everyday tasks of living.
MR. REDDINGTON: So the fact that she's not talking about the unicorns in the corner, and she's not slurring her speech, and she's not unable to walk, to your opinion, to a reasonable degree of medical certainty, does that mean that she's not in a psychotic state?
PAUL ZEIZEL: It does not.
MR. REDDINGTON: Would you tell us after she took Cora to the doctors, and the jurors have had a chance to look at the exhibits, there's photographs between her and her husband, Pat, back and forth. In the afternoon, what did she do?
PAUL ZEIZEL: She built a snowman in the backyard.
MR. REDDINGTON: Did she—
PAUL ZEIZEL: With two of her kids.
MR. REDDINGTON: …later in that day, Google directions to a restaurant, a 3V restaurant, I believe?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: Is that something that a person can do when they're in that type of a state?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Easily.
MR. REDDINGTON: Did the—
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: …voices or the intrusive thoughts, to your interview and your understanding, abate or stop at that point on January 24th?
PAUL ZEIZEL: No.
MR. REDDINGTON: Did they continue?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: And did she communicate by text with her husband about getting dinner and getting something from CVS?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: And what was it? Was it Pedialax?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Pedialax or Flextralax. It's a stool softener for her child, her—
MR. REDDINGTON: And that's something that was prescribed by the doctor, right?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: Does that make sense that if somebody is in a state where they're having these symptoms, that they're able to remember that the doctor wanted the child to have Pedialax, and she tells her husband to get Pedialax?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes. It does not interfere with that type of everyday living.
MR. REDDINGTON: She indicated to you, sir, that that evening after the husband had... Oh, by the way, was it your understanding from talking to her that the husband had taken trips, gone away for weekends, gone on ski trips, had brunches with his friends, and was out of the house on a regular basis?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: That night is when the children were killed. Is that correct?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: And we've heard repeatedly about the circumstances of the going out the window, and the weather, and the damages, and the injuries, and going to the hospital. Doctor, based on your review of all of the medical records, did you administer any testing, by the way, to her, like you were talking about psychological testing?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: And what were the psychological tests that you performed?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Initially I did a mini mental status, it was MMSE. It's just a common test of memory orientation.
MR. REDDINGTON: I'm sorry, I didn't understand that.
PAUL ZEIZEL: Oh.
MR. REDDINGTON: NSE? What's that?
PAUL ZEIZEL: MMSE, Mini Mental Status Examination. Very common test—
MR. REDDINGTON: Okay.
PAUL ZEIZEL: ...demonstrating whether someone has a field of knowledge, who's the president, what direction should you travel, and basic things like, "Where are you? What day is today? Who are you?" And then I did another test as well.
MR. REDDINGTON: What other test was that, sir?
PAUL ZEIZEL: That's the Hare Psychopathy Checklist, H-A-R-E. Also—
MR. REDDINGTON: And what does that do?
PAUL ZEIZEL: That's a measure of antisocial personality disorder.
MR. REDDINGTON: And do you have an opinion to a reasonable degree of medical certainty based upon the scale that you use to assess whether or not Lindsay Clancy had antisocial personality disorder?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: What was the result?
PAUL ZEIZEL: The result is that she does not have any type of antisocial personality disorder, also known as sociopathy.
MR. REDDINGTON: In addition to reviewing the medical records, and testing, and meeting with her, did you also interview third parties?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: Is that referred to in the psychology as collateral contacts?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: And you reviewed and interviewed a number of people in her family, or friends, or people in her social circle. Is that correct?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: Can you tell the jurors, sir, to a reasonable degree... Well, let me ask you this. Are you familiar with Mass General Hospital doing a major research program on postpartum psychosis?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: And did they publish an article, a significant article regarding the circumstances, symptomology, and things of that nature of postpartum psychosis?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: And would you agree, sir, that the symptoms of postpartum psychosa- so, postpartum psychosis would be depression? Is that one?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: Did Lindsay, to your opinion, have depression?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: And were there indications from your review of the medical records that she felt low, flat, tearful, emotional, crying?
PAUL ZEIZEL: All of those things, yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: Did she also express anxiety, feeling tense, nervousness?
PAUL ZEIZEL: All of those things, yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: Did she also express feelings that she was withdrawn, not able to socialize with people, wanting to talk or be near others?
PAUL ZEIZEL: All of those things as well, yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: Did she indicate that she felt tired, heavy, without energy?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Absolutely, yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: Did she indicate that she was having a harder time taking care of her children?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: Did she indicate that she was having issues regarding personal hygiene, not bathing, things of that nature?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: Did she indicate that she had severe confusion, in actually hearing or seeing things that aren't there? In her case, it would not be seeing. That would be visual hallucinations. But did she complain of hearing things that weren't there, hallucinations?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: Did she complain of thoughts and beliefs that were not within reality, and that she was in a disassociated state—
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: ...out of reality?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: Did she indicate that... Did you observe that there was a... there were circumstances where she exhibited increased energy, activity, productivity, otherwise known as hypomania?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: Did she complain that she had racing thoughts, a quote, "busy brain," end quote, increased creativity?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: And when she said, in your review of the medical records, that she was having a busy brain, did she express the fact that she would get confused and that her... it was... she thought her brain was damaged?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes, that's correct.
MR. REDDINGTON: Was she restless and agitated, unable to keep still?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: Unable to sleep?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes, extremely unable to sleep.
MR. REDDINGTON: So can you tell this jury, sir, in your opinion, to a reasonable degree of medical certainty, based upon all of what you have reviewed, all of what we have talked about, all of what you have considered, as to whether or not at the time of this incident resulting in the killing of these three little kids, that she was suffering from a mental disease or a defect such as that she lost substantial capacity to appreciate the wrongfulness of her act, or in the disjunctive, was unable to conform her conduct to the requirements of the law?
PAUL ZEIZEL: Yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: Tell the jury what your opinion is, please.
PAUL ZEIZEL: My opinion is that she did have indeed a mental disease or a defect. That's a legal construct, not a DSM-V one, but she had bipolar disorder with postpartum psychosis. In addition, she was unable to conform her behaviors to the rule of law, and she had no appreciation for the wrongfulness of her act.
MR. REDDINGTON: Thank you, sir.
PAUL ZEIZEL: You're welcome.