7.Bethany DeCollibus — Direct/Cross
251 linesMS. SPRAGUE: Commonwealth calls Bethany DeCollibus.
BAILIFF: Good morning, ma'am. Stop right there and raise your right hand for the clerk, please.
BAILIFF: Watch your step, please.
THE COURT: All right. Good morning.
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: Good morning.
THE COURT: Hi. Counsel.
MS. SPRAGUE: Thank you. Can you please state and spell your name for the record?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: Bethany DeCollibus. B-E-T-H-A-N-Y D-E-C-O-L-L-I-B-U-S.
MS. SPRAGUE: And your date of birth?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: 6/29/89.
MS. SPRAGUE: What do you do for work?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist.
MS. SPRAGUE: And do you have your own practice?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: I do have a private practice.
MS. SPRAGUE: How long have you been in this line of work?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: I've had the private practice for about six years, but I've been licensed for close to 12.
MS. SPRAGUE: And in your practice, do you do in-person therapy or telehealth therapy?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: I do telehealth therapy right now.
MS. SPRAGUE: Do you know Lindsay Clancy?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: I do.
MS. SPRAGUE: How do you know her?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: We were friends, met as new moms in the same town.
MS. SPRAGUE: Would that be Duxbury?
MS. SPRAGUE: And how often would you see her?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: I'd say probably weekly.
MS. SPRAGUE: And where would that occur?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: Our kids were involved in similar activities, music classes, gymnastics classes. We'd schedule play dates.
MS. SPRAGUE: What was her typical demeanor?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: She was active, engaged, friendly.
MS. SPRAGUE: Did you ever notice any distinctive changes in her rate of speech or the way she spoke?
MS. SPRAGUE: Did you ever see any extreme changes in energy or weird behavior?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: No changes in weird behavior, but I did notice that she appeared more tired.
MR. REDDINGTON: I'm sorry. I didn't get that.
MS. SPRAGUE: Could you repeat that?
THE COURT: You could state that again.
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: Oh, I was answering the second part of your question. I didn't notice any changes in behavior, but I did notice her appearing more tired over time.
MS. SPRAGUE: And was that after she had Callan or before that?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: Afterwards.
MS. SPRAGUE: And how often would you see her after she had Callan?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: Weekly.
MS. SPRAGUE: So still, still going to the same types of places where you would run into her and engage with her. Is that correct?
MS. SPRAGUE: And other than seeming more tired, was there any other change in her demeanor or personality or behavior?
MS. SPRAGUE: Did she tell you during that time that she was having trouble sleeping?
MS. SPRAGUE: And did she give you any specifics on that?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: Just that it was very difficult to get sleep, difficult to fall asleep even when kids were asleep. And that it was just a—it was an ongoing struggle.
MS. SPRAGUE: Did that cause concern for you at that point?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: I think for a period of time it felt normal, but after it seemed to continue and not let up for her, I definitely worried about her and was concerned.
MS. SPRAGUE: When you say it seemed normal, what do you mean by that at first?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: It, I would say for a period of time, seemed reminiscent of, you know, sleep troubles that, you know, I remember having and that, you know, remember friends talking about. But I think over time, I started to worry more and realized that it wasn't improving for her.
MS. SPRAGUE: And what you're talking about, is it, you know, typically after having a baby, new moms are tired from, you know, late-night feedings and changings and all of that?
MS. SPRAGUE: And then with Lindsay, she stayed tired?
MS. SPRAGUE: Okay. Did she talk to you about seeking out help from doctors?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: She did.
MS. SPRAGUE: And did she talk to you about seeking out medication to help?
MS. SPRAGUE: And do you recall any specifics about those conversations about what types of doctors or what types of medication she was seeking?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: I don't know about the different types of doctors or the types of medications.
MS. SPRAGUE: Did you ever talk to her and she relayed that she was looking to find a therapist?
MS. SPRAGUE: And do you know if she ever found a therapist?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: At some point, it did sound like she had found a provider to work with.
MS. SPRAGUE: Being a therapist yourself, did you ever offer to give some referrals or anything like that, or did she ask for any?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: I can't remember.
MS. SPRAGUE: And you said that she continued to appear tired, correct?
MS. SPRAGUE: But other than appearing tired as the weeks went by, did you observe her in having any problem interacting with people or doing the typical behaviors that you would do at the events you would usually see her at?
MS. SPRAGUE: Did she appear to have any trouble doing day-to-day tasks or interacting with anyone?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: Not that I saw.
MS. SPRAGUE: Did she ever tell you that she was depressed or suicidal?
MS. SPRAGUE: Did she ever tell you that she had thoughts of harming anyone else?
MS. SPRAGUE: Did her physical appearance change in any way?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: Not that I noticed.
MS. SPRAGUE: When you would engage with her, have conversations with her, were they usually in person or text or both?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: It was a mix of both.
MS. SPRAGUE: And did you ever have trouble understanding her, either in person or in a text?
MS. SPRAGUE: Did she ever appear to have trouble understanding you?
MS. SPRAGUE: At some point in time, did you have dinner with Lindsay and a woman named Erin Renaud sometime in November?
MS. SPRAGUE: And was that something that the three of you typically did?
MS. SPRAGUE: How often would you do that?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: Probably once every couple of months.
MS. SPRAGUE: Was this the first time you'd done that since Callan was born?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: I can't remember.
MS. SPRAGUE: Okay. And what was Lindsay's demeanor during that dinner?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: She was engaged in conversation with us.
MS. SPRAGUE: Do you recall saying previously that she seemed normal?
MS. SPRAGUE: You don't recall saying that?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: Not specifically, no.
MS. SPRAGUE: What about her speech pattern? Was there anything different about her speech pattern?
MS. SPRAGUE: What did you guys talk about during that dinner?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: I remember catching up as we usually did. You know, giving each other updates on, you know, what our kids had been up to, what we—our families had been up to. And I also made it a point to check in with her about how her sleep was and how she had been feeling lately.
MS. SPRAGUE: And did she give you responses to those questions?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: She did.
MS. SPRAGUE: Did they make sense?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: The responses made sense.
MS. SPRAGUE: Yeah. Did she—what was the tone of this conversation?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: I'm not sure how to answer that question.
MS. SPRAGUE: Well, when you're asking her about how things are going with her sleep and other things, and she's responding, is she—does she seem negative and depressed about things? Does she seem hopeful about things? Like, what—what's the tone?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: I mean, it was a serious conversation. I was concerned and wanted to check in. It had sounded like she had been able to connect with some providers. And I would say at that point, I remember her expressing feeling hopeful about the possibility that things could start to get better.
MS. SPRAGUE: And during this conversation at dinner, did she ever mention that she had suicidal thoughts?
MS. SPRAGUE: Did she ever mention that she had homicidal thoughts?
MS. SPRAGUE: Did she ever tell you that she was hearing voices?
MS. SPRAGUE: Did she ever tell you that she was having intrusive thoughts of her own?
MS. SPRAGUE: At any point in time, while you were engaging with her, did it look like she was responding to something internally, like a voice, or seeing something that wasn't there?
MS. SPRAGUE: Other than having an issue with sleep, did she mention any other issues that she was having?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: She mentioned feeling anxious.
MS. SPRAGUE: And after this dinner, did you next see her at Cora's birthday party in January?
MS. SPRAGUE: And at that birthday party, did you see her interacting with other people and you know, parents and children, as a mom would usually do at a birthday party?
MS. SPRAGUE: Did you interact with her yourself?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: I did.
MS. SPRAGUE: Did you notice anything different about her demeanor or her behavior at that party?
MS. SPRAGUE: Did you have a conversation with her briefly about sleep?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: I did.
MS. SPRAGUE: And was it you basically asking how the sleep issue was going?
MS. SPRAGUE: And what was her response?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: She responded that things haven't gotten any better and that she feels like a zombie.
MS. SPRAGUE: Was there anything about her appearance or the way she was interacting or behaving that when you saw her, you thought, "She looks like a zombie"?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: She seemed tired.
MS. SPRAGUE: But there's a difference between being tired and looking like a zombie, right?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: She didn't look like a zombie, no.
MS. SPRAGUE: And she was able to engage with you and the other parents there, engage with her children and the other children, correct?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: She was.
MS. SPRAGUE: And...
MS. SPRAGUE: Do you recall stating previously that at the party she seemed fine?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: No, not specifically.
MS. SPRAGUE: Page 11. Let's have you look at page 11, and bottom of line 24, and then to the top of page 12.
MS. SPRAGUE: Does that refresh your memory as to a conversation you had with the police back in 2023, where you said that she seemed fine at the party?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: Sure, yeah.
MS. SPRAGUE: I have no other questions. Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Reddington.
MR. REDDINGTON: So, morning.
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: Morning.
MR. REDDINGTON: Fair to say that you are obviously pretty good friends with Lindsay?
MR. REDDINGTON: And fair to say that in that regard, you had occasion to observe objectively things like she looked tired. She was complaining that she was tired?
MR. REDDINGTON: Yes. Said that she was anxious?
MR. REDDINGTON: Told you that at one point towards the end of timeframe into January, that she felt like a zombie, correct?
MR. REDDINGTON: Did you ask her any questions like the district attorney was asking you? Did you ask her, "Well, what are your symptoms, and what do you feel like, and what are you... You know, is there anything that you can tell me about how you feel?" Did you probe in that regard?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: I don't remember probing about specific—
MR. REDDINGTON: Right.
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: ...symptoms, no.
MR. REDDINGTON: So in other words, you're friends, and you and Erin and Lindsay were out to dinner or lunch, and you're trying to have a good time, right?
MR. REDDINGTON: How was she as a mother, to your observations? Did she, as far as taking care of her kids, being happy with the kids? Did she not like her kids? What were your observations?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: She loved her kids. She was warm, kind, consistent, loving.
MR. REDDINGTON: And you actually were summonsed to be here today by the district attorney's office, correct?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: I was.
MR. REDDINGTON: And you actually were interviewed by the state police. That's what she was questioning you about, page 11 and page 12. It was a recorded interview and things of that nature, right?
MR. REDDINGTON: Would you agree with me that although she may not have been telling you that she was seeing something that wasn't there, or hearing voices or drooling or acting in some unusual fashion while you guys were out having lunch, she did express to you that she was having some difficulties, correct?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: She expressed that she was having difficulty, yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: And would you say, knowing Lindsay as you did, that she was the type that was not really a complainer? She would not try to be a downer when you're out to lunch and having a good time with your friends and complain about her symptoms?
MR. REDDINGTON: But she did tell you that she was somewhat hopeful because she was seeing healthcare providers?
MR. REDDINGTON: And one of the things that they had asked you about, fair to say that when you talked to the police, you told them that you had spent a lot of time chatting about, over this period of time, that she had been having a lot of trouble, a lot of trouble sleeping, and that she referenced the postpartum period, right?
MR. REDDINGTON: And when you were talking to the police, the troopers, did they try to divert you? Did you feel that they were trying to get what your observations were, or did they want you to focus on their questions when they were questioning you?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: Could you repeat that question?
MR. REDDINGTON: No, it's a bad question.
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: Sorry.
MR. REDDINGTON: Never mind. It's a bad question. I'm sorry. But nevertheless, you actually told them that you had been in touch with her, you'd been to the house, right?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: I had been in touch with her, yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: Yeah, and you knew Patrick?
MR. REDDINGTON: Other than socializing with your friends and with Erin and going out to lunches, you guys would also text, correct?
MR. REDDINGTON: And that's a way of keeping touch with each other?
MR. REDDINGTON: And she would respond to your inquiries about fun things and about kids, right?
MR. REDDINGTON: But also, on occasion, you were concerned about her, and you'd ask her how she's doing, right?
MR. REDDINGTON: And when you would ask her those things, she would tell you, for example, that she didn't know what medications were doing to her, but she, in fact, mentioned to you that the medications did not appear as though they were helping, and she still wasn't able to get any sleep?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: Correct.
MR. REDDINGTON: And further, in the statements that you gave to the police, when they were asking you questions about your observations, she did indicate on a couple of occasions that she had obtained a therapist and a prescriber. And she would reference her relationship with Pat and tell you that Pat's great, things like that, right?
MR. REDDINGTON: You said yes? I'm sorry. The door closed.
MR. REDDINGTON: So in those occasions, did she ever complain about Pat, or were they seemed to be getting along pretty good?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: They seemed to be getting along great.
MR. REDDINGTON: Was he supportive, to your observations, of her?
MR. REDDINGTON: Then when you went out to the other dinner, did you indicate to the police that in that conversation, that her mother knows everything, or she told you, "My mom knows everything," and she's working it out as far as the therapist and the drugs, correct?
MR. REDDINGTON: And you still felt that it was readily apparent that she was struggling, right?
MR. REDDINGTON: Still having difficulty sleeping and being anxious, right?
MR. REDDINGTON: And as a friend, you were concerned, right?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: I was concerned, yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: Now, one of the questions the DA had asked you is that she was supposed to go back to work, and that she indicated that she had canceled that date to go back to work because she still wasn't sleeping well. Is that right?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: She had, yes.
MR. REDDINGTON: And she- Those were her words, that she canceled going back to work because she still wasn't sleeping well?
MR. REDDINGTON: Did she ever talk to you about work? Did she seem to like her job as a labor and delivery nurse?
BETHANY DECOLLIBUS: She loved it, as far as I knew.
MR. REDDINGTON: And then you were at Cora's birthday party in January. Is that correct?
MR. REDDINGTON: And that was the one that was at the trampoline park, right?
MR. REDDINGTON: And it was that time, and that would have been in January of '23, I believe, that it was in that time that you were concerned, and you said, "Hey, are you getting any sleep?" And she was like, "No, I feel like a zombie," is what her words were, correct?
MR. REDDINGTON: Is that the last time you saw her?
MR. REDDINGTON: Thank you.
THE COURT: Any redirect?
MS. SPRAGUE: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you. You may step down. Counsel, why don't we take a brief recess at this time? So we're gonna take the morning recess at this point.
BAILIFF: Court, all rise, please.
BAILIFF: Jurors have exited the courtroom. This court is in session.
THE COURT: Counsel, anything we need to talk about before the break?
MS. SPRAGUE: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. REDDINGTON: No, thank you.
THE COURT: So we'll be in recess at this time. Thank you.
MR. REDDINGTON: Thank you, Judge.
BAILIFF: All rise.
BAILIFF: This court is back in session. You may be seated.
COURT CLERK: Your Honor, for the purpose of the record, we return back to the matter, Commonwealth versus Lindsay Clancy. All parties are present, including the jury. I mean, including the defendant, excluding the jury.
THE COURT: All right. Counsel, you ready for the jury?
MR. REDDINGTON: Yes.
THE COURT: All right. Bring them in.
THE COURT: Counsel, can I see you at sidebar just very briefly?